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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:20 pm 
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Posts: 1001
Wael wrote:
In the first blue screen showing "wait 5 seconds before automatical continuation" although the word "automatical" don't exist in English!

http://books.google.ru/books?id=00gWAAA ... al&f=false

http://books.google.ru/books?id=00gWAAA ... navlinks_s
The Automatical Camera-obscura: Exhibiting Scenes from Nature,delineated by an Unerring Pencil and Preserved in an Ancient Port-folio: Also Events which Have Engaged the Attention, Excited the Admiration and Afforded Instruction to the Wise and Good in Every Age

Thomas Towne
F.Westley, 1821


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 Post subject: KolibriOS Startup time 3
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:47 pm 
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Posts: 39
Wael says;
" (In the first blue screen showing "wait 5 seconds before automatical continuation",
although the word "automatical" don't exist in English!)"

He is correct, the wording is wrong.

The words of this text string appear in the SVN within 11 files that are named
either booten.inc or booteng.inc
The specific line they are appearing in looks like this;
nn db " before automatical continuation",13,10,0
where nn is the line number. The line numbers are not all the same in the
11 files, there is variation in the line numbers. (Here is list of what all the varying
line numbers are; 58, 75, 108, 109, 69, and 72. Of course, it is easy to find the
text string.)

Suggestion is to replace the words " before automatical continuation"
with instead this text string; " and it will continue booting"
Note! there is a space required after the first quotation mark, as is shown above.

Therefore, when such a text message is displayed in future, it will not display e.g.;
wait 5 seconds before automatical continuation
but will instead display;
wait 5 seconds and it will continue booting

Now here is a list of the location of those 11 files;
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... booten.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... booten.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... ooteng.inc
http://websvn.kolibrios.org/filedetails ... booten.inc

That's it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:36 pm 
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Posts: 1001
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictio ... olicy=true

automatic=automatical, both wordings are right and a lot of examples show it


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:07 pm
Posts: 39
I can only gently reply that if you used the wording 'automatical continuation'
in the (anglo-saxon) west, they would smile in such a way that you would be left
in no doubt that they considered you either the recipient of a poor language
education, or that you were 'строить из себя шута' (!)
http://images.doctissimo.fr/1/divers/di ... is-big.jpg
http://flowtv.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 795354.png
I can assure you that nowhere in any english speaking country is this particular
wording used, commonly or uncommonly.
My concern in posting was that if it is causing confusion to 'not english as first
language' person(s), then this may not give a good impression to users (even if
only in a minor way) of the OS.
Cheers


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:46 pm
Posts: 16
I totally agree with buyerninety here. I am not a native English speaker yet I'm a professional Russian/English interpreter by my secondary higher education, and "automatical continuation" looks totally barbaric to me too. It's a "russicism", a word-for-word translation of the collocation alien to the target language. Regretfully, the KolibriOS documentation leaves much to be desired, literary-wise, even in its original mother tongue.

As for the equality between "automatic" and "automatical", does anyone know that the original meaning of Russian "подонки", according to Dal's thesaurus, is "residue at the bottom of a wine bottle" rather than "bastards" as everyone uses it today? What was normal in a language 100 or 50 years ago may well be long forgotten ("deprecated", in IT lingo) today.

KolibriOS' message interface and documentation ought to be translated and/or written by native speakers of target languages. Failure to do so counter-advertises the project and is detrimental to the community's public image and common cause.

Spoiler: Show
yogev_ezra wrote:
OMG please stop! The OP just asked about skipping the blue screen - don't turn this thread into English-grammar lesson.
That's pure demagogy, yogev_ezra. The topic starter uttered two statements of which the former presupposed an answer, and the latter, a discussion. Now he's got the both.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:50 pm 
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Posts: 16
IMHO a simple " to proceed" will be a better option. Then the entire line will read:

... and wait X seconds to proceed

It sounds English enough and is syntactically correct and semantically closer to the Russian original.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:07 pm
Posts: 39
" and it will continue booting" is simple and understandable (to talk, like office manager explaining to students),
another acceptable form of wording is;
" and it will automatically continue" also understandable (to talk, like engineer explaining to students),
{red colour is addition of missing syllable 'ly' and there is also a grammatical correction to the ending of 'continue'}. :)

" and wait X seconds to proceed" :o
Above sentence is language correct, however it must be understood that the 'program code'
will act by itself to insert the part 'wait X seconds' , therefore in Косинус example is needed
only the " to proceed", - if wishing to use Косинус suggestion for the translation.
(Косинус suggestion also simple and understandable, although I would suggest to instead use wording
" before proceeding", as this wording gives more of an implied understanding in this wording
to 'stop and do nothing until' the time period has expired.)
All Good suggestions.! Now please, for sanity of yogev_ezra, no more on this small point. :wink:


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:59 pm 
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buyerninety wrote:
... it must be understood that the 'program code' will act by itself to insert the part 'wait X seconds' , therefore in Косинус example is needed only the " to proceed"...
That's exactly what I meant and I even kept the space in place:
Косинус wrote:
... a simple "_to proceed" will be a better option. Then the entire line will read ...
Anyway, I support your " before proceeding" proposition given your argumentation.


buyerninety wrote:
... no more on this small point.
In fact, I've added this message only to shift the thread message count off of 13 total. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:43 pm 
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So, I have proofs and you don't have. You have to contact these guys at London http://www.collinsdictionary.com/contact-us - they should change their vocabulary as they "don't know English".


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 Post subject: KolibriOS Startup time 2
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:44 pm 
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Posts: 5066
Not everything from Dal' dictionaly used now :) (словарь Даля))

_________________
Через тернии к звездам


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:28 pm 
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Wildwest wrote:
So, I have proofs and you don't have. You have to contact these guys at London http://www.collinsdictionary.com/contact-us - they should change their vocabulary as they "don't know English".

Wildwest,

1. I don't "have to" though sometimes I "should" and "ought to". See the (modal) difference?

2. What do you mean by my not having "proofs"? Since when Dal's thesaurus has become not proof enough for a Russian speaker? I've given you proof from the most authoritative thesaurus of your native Russian language to demonstrate that language expertise may severely lag behind the evolution of a colloquial language. The language is alive and evolving all the time contrary to academic dictionaries that need time to take representative snapshots of it and yet more time to process and publish the resultant data. The gap may sometimes take as long as years or even decades.

There are also such language phenomena as "deprecation", "usability rate", and "combinability" of words in a sentence. The word "automatical" fully meets the former category and denies the requirements of the two latter categories as far as other words in the collocation go.

And finally, there are such notions as "nominativity" and "verbality" of a language. Nominative languages like Russian tend to depict events predominantly through nouns (существительные) whereas verbal languages like English, through verbs (глаголы). What buyerninety and I were doing was in fact transforming alien Russian nominativity to native English verbality as "to proceed" and "proceeding" are both verb forms rather than nouns.

What more evidence do you need other than the testimony of a native English speaker and a certified professional Russian-to-English interpreter/translator with more than 30 years of field practice?

3. WTF is this "don't know English" rubbish? Where did you see me calling any bloody body not knowing English? That's what you said, not I. Or are you trolling me for real or what?!

Spoiler: Show
Вы меня на вшивость в споре проверяете? Не советую.

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 11:53 pm 
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Still no proofs... Btw, articles in top conferences with automatical are OK http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searc ... al&x=0&y=0

If you want to change whole message in start-up - it is OK, but saying that word doesn't exist or not used is wrong.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:51 pm 
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Posts: 39
WildWest, the word 'automatic', if you put the suffix '-cal' (meaning 'pertaining to') attached
to its end, would seem to make a word 'automatical', and so that result may be said to conform
to that 'rule' of english language linguistics - so possibly before 1900's or probably back in the
time of Isaac Newton maybe it was used. However, the word 'automatical' does not exist in
english in modern times. To use 'automatical' in english language in modern times is wrong,
because the modern convention is to use only these forms of the word; automatic, automatically,
automated, automation. That is why you will never see printed e.g. an 'automatical machine gun',
- the accepted modern usage is instead e.g. an 'automatic machine gun'.
I'm not a Professor of English Linguistics and so cannot explain why this is the modern convention.

in that you cite collinsdictionary - yes, collinsdictionary shows it
like this - "automatical=automatic", but that is a poor way by collinsdisctionary to show
it in that manner - if they want to show it, what they should show instead is like this;
automatical [archaic word], use instead automatic (as noun or adjective) or automatically (adverb)

For proof, you can check any other english book dictionary or online dictionary such as;
http://dictionary.cambridge.org
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/automatical
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/automatical
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/automatical?s=t
etc., and you will see that 'automatical' either returns no result or returns a result that
says it is 'archaic' (meaning from old times and not suitable for modern usage), and will
then give acceptable modern words instead.

As for IEEE, again visit http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/searc ... al&x=0&y=0
and you will see a strange thing - almost every scientific item with 'automatical' is authored
by asians
, and the very few 'english looking' names seem to be submitting the scientific
paper from, or associated with, e.g. an Institute in France, a University in Germany, etc....
Also, that IEEE webpage does not give a number for how many items 1985 to 2014 it has
searched through, but at http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/aboutUs.jsp it states "Approximately
25,000 new documents are added to IEEE Xplore each month". There are only 125 results
on that IEEE search page (oldest item result is dated 1985), so you can understand that
occaisionally, rarely, the wrong wording may be used even in such items, even in their title.

Even if you google "automatical ", when you carefully go through the results, you realize that it's
either a dictionary program actually only 'matching' to the 'nearest similar word' [i.e. word actually],
or text from an 1800's dictionary being shown, or a 'non-native english' person using it on a webpage,
or a spelling mistake, etc..

Consider that the dataset is so large (the internet) that if 'automatical' existed in modern english,
there should be plenty of examples of texts from english speaking countries and by 'modern
native english speakers' using it - but there are not, so if this is not proof, then certainly logical
reasoning alone gives that 'automatical' does not exist in modern english and/or that it is not used
by modern native english speakers.
Cheers


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Posts: 1001
Automatical for ACM is OK too http://dl.acm.org/ (you have to type automatical). So word exist and still in use. Top publishers (from USA) in science made their choice and their authority is much higher than yours. No need to talk that there is no such word and doesn't matter who use it.

You can propose alternative text without automatic/automatical.


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